Okay, I'm currently paused at 2:32. Gingrich has just said that arguably the Declaration of Independence is the most important document for the United States. Since this is a program focusing on what the founders believed about religion in governance, I have a feeling that I know what Mr. McClay is going to say. Which is why I want to voice my own opinion before he can say it.
There are a lot of pro-religion people who dislike Thomas Jefferson (writer of the Declaration) because he wrote the Virginia Statue for Religious Freedom which is the place you will find the words "separation of church and state". Jefferson also built his University under that principle. In every other university of it's time and before, a chapel was placed at the center of it. At UVA, the Rotunda which served as both a space for classrooms and the library is at the center. Then are dorms where students and professors live together. The chapel was built outside of the lawn. Isn't this a visual description of how Jefferson believed the country should be governed?
First commercial break--
Well...you've convinced me that the founding fathers were religious...which you do realize wasn't the same religion you have now, right? Washington wasn't Pat Robertson.
And, please...don't use memorials to tell us what the founders believed. They were created LATER and with the ideals and interpretations of the people who designed and built it. Go to the Smithsonian and look at the HUGE statue of Washington. He's supposed to draw comparisons to Ancient Greece appearing like the Zeus to our Democratic pantheon. All was good for about 20 years as he sat in the middle of D.C. for everyone to gaze upon. Then one day someone looked at it in a new light. GEORGE WASHINGTON WAS NAKED!!!!!!!!! And he's been hidden away ever since.
If you are trying to tell me the story of the founding fathers and their beliefs, do NOT use ANYTHING that wasn't contemporary to their time. You should be discussing the evolution of the Enlightenment, not telling me what men were thinking during the Depression when the Jefferson Memorial was commissioned. If you don't talk about the University while discussing Jefferson, Gingrich, you get a failing grade and my emense simpathy for all of the students whose education was hurt inside of your classroom.
HAHAHAHAAH. Oh My God. Want to talk about irony?!? They start out with wondering if a monument about Jefferson could get built today since the first thing you notice is his own words about swearing to God to fight against all tyranny over the mind of man. Wow. That's really deep. Of course, I'm not sure that Gingrich got it right as he uses this line as evidence of Jefferson's belief that we should all have God in the center of our lives. The started out the segment on Jefferson by saying that Jefferson is often seen as the "patron saint" for separation of church and state because he wasn't a traditional Christian and believed in the Englightenment and the necessity to question everything. One of the things that he had to question was what exactly was the role of God...and as you can see when you tour UVA--secular learning comes at the center; religion is a necessary moral guide, but not at the expense of books and discovery. The Catholic Church played a major role in the Enlightenment which came as a result of the Scientific Revolution, when the Church said that it didn't matter how much evidence you had to say that the Sun was at the center of the Solar System; the Bible says that Humans (and therefore Earth) are the center of the Universe. Jefferson, would therefore be a hypocrit because if his God suddenly said that he was not allowed to innovate or learn, he'd become an Atheist for sure. The mind of man is what's most important...the fact that he's swearing to God to fight tyranny over it is a mere technicality.
And now we're talking about Slavery...Umm...thank-you Fox News. Apparently their theory on education is that using examples of the use of the word God is evidence of the founders' feelings--that the examples alone are explaination of what they felt. Are they actually going to go into what those words would have meant in 1776 to 1789?!? Or are we supposed to just be dumb cows and assume that the connotations and meanings haven't changed? I feel like my professors writing on papers: "expand" and "more detail". Quotes are necessary, but without delving into the significance you're looking at a C paper. What does it mean when Jefferson wrote that "all men are created equal under their creator"? If you can't tell me, why bother?
Ahh...and apparently the Virginia Statue of Religious Freedom doesn't exist as a founding document. Well, played Fox News, well played. Since it was never officially voted upon by the founders to make it a federal document, it must be left to the shelves of "things the founders wrote to influence the way people thought without actually meaning for it to become meaningful law". Well, I take your Statue for Religious Freedom and raise you one (or rather 85) Federalist Papers. Your move. Oh wait...I'm throwing in a Common Sense article on the side.
Sigh...okay...once again. Thank-you for the interesting quiz questions. I didn't know that Franklin asked that a prayer be held before each meeting and I didn't know that there's a painting of Pochahontas being baptised in the Capital. But, for the latter, do you mind telling me when it was painted? Who commissioned it (or bought it for placement)? And when it was placed where it now sits? Because if it wasn't done while the founders were in office, then all you are telling me is that at some point some government official, who has been removed from the founders by how many years decided to put in some religious artwork--just like Congress decided to add "under God" to the Pledge of Alliegence in 1947. So far Gingrich, you're ACING the "how many ways can we fool the public into believing whatever we're trying to tell them by giving lots of examples and no in depth analysis" section while failing dismally the "we're actually trying to teach you something" part. You won't find many *educated* people who believe in Separation of Church and State who don't know that the founders attended church regularly, but can still give you plenty of evidence of why they wouldn't support the lack of separation many on the right wish to have.
I highly doubt that Jefferson would say that it isn't tyranny to tell a child that they have to memorize a passage from the Bible before class every morning, especially if said child was Jewish, Muslim, or Hindu. Though he would probably say that reading the Bible (and the Torah and the Quran and I'm afraid I'm insinsitive because I do not know the holy book for Hindus) and deciding what you believe for yourself is very important to a well rounded education. In fact Gingrich, how about you hop over to the Smithsonian and pick up a copy of Jefferson's Bible? Or is it against your faith to see your holy book cut into little pieces and re-spliced together to form a cohesive account of exactly what Jefferson believed--I think he even wrote in some footnotes to help you figure it out.
Ugh...This latest question is giving me a glimpse into the real reason behind this program: "which came first the Christmas Tree in the White House or the Easter Egg Roll?" They want to stop the people who want to get rid of such traditions for being religious. Okay...I can see that. I wish they'd said that from the beginning. That's the problem that this program has had--they're trying to push one agenda while hiding it behind something seemingly educational. It's okay to want to show the traditions of the past--in fact, if they'd done a good job showing how the traditions started and where they fit into the historical context, it would be well done. But instead we have all these rather random references thrown out without any real analysis into the history.
Look we can agree that the founding fathers believed that personal religion plays a huge roll in everyday life--in their own decision making too. They wrote the 1st amendment to say that everyone gets to believe what they believe when they believe it and to be able to live based on the way that they believe that they should. But they didn't give government the right to say "this is a Christian Nation only." Heck Egg Rolling was a Pagan idea that the early Christians adopted--Protestants should be protesting the annual event even louder than the Atheists. The same is true of the Christmas tree which came from Germany (Washington decorated Mount Vernon with boughs (I think they're called) over the doorways and that was it). The Atheists aren't asking for representatives to throw away their faith--many times they'll agree on moral issues anyway, no Bible required. All they're asking for is that non-Christian faiths not be tossed aside as worthless. If you look at the history, the first "White House Christmas tree" was decorated in 1929--before that it was a family tree that no one can even agree about who had the first (as they adopted the custom from Germany, remember). If the first family has a Christmas tree, fine, but we don't need to have one standing there saying "look world, everyone in this country celebrates Christmas"--in fact, there are many conservative Christian groups who don't believe in having a tree or exchanging gifts--shouldn't they be standing up for their beliefs? And I don't think that the Atheists mind if our representatives talk about their own faith so long as there is a clear understanding that they aren't trying to speak for everyone. By the way, Roosevelt abandoned the egg rolling while he was president and Congress banned the use of the White House lawn to be used as a children's playground in 1877. And I don't think they ever answered the question about which came first.
Wait...big government supplants the church--the state becomes the church?!? What? I do not undertand this guy's reasoning. Especially given the topic we're supposed to be talking about. Are we supposed to believe that people left the church when government got bigger under Roosevelt? Well, I guess one could argue that with better education, fewer people bought into some of the things the churches have to say (see that video on the Amish I posted yesterday--one of the girls felt she had to leave the community when her mother told her it would be better if she didn't think all because she couldn't understand the reasoning behind being allowed to pay for a taxi to take her to the store, but not beling allowed to own a bicycle that would let her be self-sufficient and go by herself). And as for people turning to government rather than the church for aid, well one can't expect people who have left the church for their own reasons (I highly doubt that Roosevelt's government was paying people not to go to church) to ask for aid from an organization that they don't fundamentally agree with. And aren't churches finding it more difficult to pay for all the needy people they have? Where are all the Christian millionaires to pay for their care? Oh right. I forgot. Romney paid exactly his 10% to charity last year.
Well...I guess I see the Vietnam Memorial differently. Some see it as being something cold and barren that doesn't serve to honor what the men sacrificed themselves for. That because there isn't a religious part to it, it's somehow empty. I think that the American people, when the cover it with flowers and poems and other things are helping to create a memorial that isn't trying to please everyone. Yes, I can see the need to remember the nurses, and maybe the need to have the statues of the fighters, but everyone knows the saying "you can please some of the people some of the time, but none of the people all of the time. The Vietnam Memorial is my favorite memorial because of it's simplicity--it's not trying to talk you into believing something. It's simply a place for you to come and reflect on what that war meant to you. If religion matters, then feel free to add your own, just like the religious symbols on the government headstones. But no one wants to impose their religious views on the others. And I just can't see Washington, Franklin, Jefferson or any of the other founders putting the 10 Commandments on a building.
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